| Author |
Manic Miner |
matt
Super Administrator
Posts: 90
Location: Wellington
Joined: 05.07.05 |
| Posted on 13-04-2008 19:20 |
|
|
Post your thoughts about Manic Miner here!
Edited by matt on 13-04-2008 19:21 |
 
|
| Author |
RE: manic miner |
drunkpumpkin
Member
Posts: 1
Location:
Joined: 15.04.08 |
| Posted on 30-04-2008 13:18 |
|
|
|
is there anyway to save progress at different levels |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
matt
Super Administrator
Posts: 90
Location: Wellington
Joined: 05.07.05 |
| Posted on 02-05-2008 10:11 |
|
|
Unfortunately not, because of the high score board you have to start at level 1 each time! Nice idea for a future version though.  |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
andrewbroad
Member
Posts: 69
Location: England
Joined: 23.11.05 |
| Posted on 03-05-2008 00:16 |
|
|
|
Perhaps when you lose all your lives, you should get a choice between submitting a high score and continuing with infinite lives. |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
matt
Super Administrator
Posts: 90
Location: Wellington
Joined: 05.07.05 |
| Posted on 07-05-2008 18:35 |
|
|
Another great idea for a future version... if there ever will be one...  |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
daz
Member
Posts: 1
Location:
Joined: 09.05.08 |
| Posted on 09-05-2008 09:36 |
|
|
So when are you doing Jet Set Willy?
Thanks for doing this one - ideal for a Friday at work 
|
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
matt
Super Administrator
Posts: 90
Location: Wellington
Joined: 05.07.05 |
| Posted on 09-05-2008 14:47 |
|
|
You are in luck! It's under development:
http://www.darnkitty.com/jsw/
Edited by matt on 22-05-2008 22:09 |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
andrewbroad
Member
Posts: 69
Location: England
Joined: 23.11.05 |
| Posted on 09-05-2008 22:23 |
|
|
Another challenge in Manic Miner - besides the obvious one of going for the highest cavern you can reach - is trying to set the highest possible score for a cavern before losing your last life in that cavern.
I have set the perfect high scores for Caverns 1 to 10:
1500, 3302, 5251, 7137, 9002, 10720, 12543, 16787, 18089, 19807
Caverns 1 to 7 are simple, as they each have 5 items (100 points each), so you just have to get to your target-room as efficiently as possible, then commit suicide three times after taking all the items in that room.
Cavern 8 only has 4 items, so to set the perfect high for this cavern, you have to sacrifice two lives in earlier caverns.
You score 2500 for toppling the Kong Beast, but it doesn't count if you do it again, so to set perfect highs for Caverns 9 to 20, you have to sacrifice one life in Cavern 8, then pass it the next time without the time-penalty of toppling the Kong Beast (this doesn't help for Cavern 21 and beyond, as Cavern 21 has 10 items).
Cavern 9 only has one item, so to set the perfect high, you have to sacrifice one life before Cavern 8 and another in Cavern 8.
Caverns 10 to 13, 17 and 20 have 5 items each, so you don't have to sacrifice a life before Cavern 8.
Caverns 14 to 16 have 4, 3 and 4 items respectively, and Caverns 18 and 19 have 1 and 3 items respectively, so for these caverns, you have to sacrifice two lives beforehand: one in Cavern 8, and another in a room with 5 items.
There's also the matter of perfect entry-scores for each cavern, so you can tell if you're on par for a perfect high. For Caverns 2 to 7, these are...
1802, 3751, 5637, 7502, 9220, 11043
...and after Cavern 7, it depends on where you sacrifice your lives for your target-cavern. |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
andrewbroad
Member
Posts: 69
Location: England
Joined: 23.11.05 |
| Posted on 11-05-2008 17:37 |
|
|
|
When the "Upload" button freezes on "Uploading...", it would be nice to be able to try again. |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
croxtond
Member
Posts: 2
Location:
Joined: 26.04.08 |
| Posted on 15-05-2008 08:03 |
|
|
|
The left cursor keeps freezing on my PC is there any way of changing the control keys? |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
matt
Super Administrator
Posts: 90
Location: Wellington
Joined: 05.07.05 |
| Posted on 15-05-2008 10:02 |
|
|
|
Hi croxtond, sorry what do you mean by The left cursor? |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
andrewbroad
Member
Posts: 69
Location: England
Joined: 23.11.05 |
| Posted on 15-05-2008 23:55 |
|
|
|
Sometimes the left-cursor key doesn't work when I'm playing Flash MM on a laptop (never on my desktop), and I try to walk left by keeping it held down after a fall. I have to release it and press it again. I can't remember if I've seen the same bug with the right-cursor key. |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
matt
Super Administrator
Posts: 90
Location: Wellington
Joined: 05.07.05 |
| Posted on 16-05-2008 11:32 |
|
|
|
Thanks for letting me know, this is new to me, I will have to investigate. |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
croxtond
Member
Posts: 2
Location:
Joined: 26.04.08 |
| Posted on 23-11-2008 11:53 |
|
|
|
How come you don't gain extra lives every 10,000 points like in the original? |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
mitkey
Member
Posts: 5
Location:
Joined: 23.09.07 |
| Posted on 20-12-2008 16:00 |
|
|
Andrew, how did you find out what the best possible scores were? By playing? 
... the reason why I'm writing this is that I was contemplating possibilities to actually compute these scores. Finding the shortest path in a state graph could be a way to tackle this ... assuming you've got a suitable interface with the game ...
Edited by mitkey on 20-12-2008 17:04 |
|
| Author |
Best possible scores |
andrewbroad
Member
Posts: 69
Location: England
Joined: 23.11.05 |
| Posted on 20-12-2008 22:51 |
|
|
To work out the best possible scores for each cavern:
1. The best possible score for Cavern 1 is 1500 (100 * 5 items * 3 lives).
2. The perfect score on entry to Cavern 2, without loss of life, is 1802.
3. Therefore, the best possible score for Cavern 2 is 1802 + 1500 = 3302, because there are 5 items again in Cavern 2.
4. The same logic can be used to calculate the best possible scores for Caverns 3 to 7, because each of these caverns has 5 items. These scores are 5251, 7137, 9002, 10720 and 12543, respectively.
5. It is not necessary to play all Caverns 1 to n-1 perfectly to calculate Cavern n's perfect entry-score. All you need to do is play Cavern n-1 perfectly, and when you're sure you have, subtract Cavern n-1's entry-score from Cavern n's entry-score, and add that difference to Cavern n-1's perfect entry-score. That is all I am permitted to say.
e.g. Suppose you wanted to calculate Cavern 3's perfect entry-score, but entered Cavern 2 with an imperfect 1781. You play Cavern 2 perfectly, and enter Cavern 3 with 5230. You already know that Cavern 2's perfect entry-score is 1802, therefore Cavern 3's perfect entry-score is 1802 + (5230 - 1781) = 5251.
6. Note that when deriving the perfect score for Cavern n that has y items from the perfect score for Cavern n-1 that has x items, when x != y, you have to adjust the difference in entry-scores by adding 100*(y-x), which will, of course, be negative when x > y.
e.g. Cavern 9 has only one item, but Cavern 10 has 5 items. Suppose you enter Cavern 9 with 16942, play Cavern 9 perfectly, and enter Cavern 10 with 18260. The difference is 1318, but because Cavern 10 has 4 more items than Cavern 9, you have to add 100*(5-1) = 400 to Cavern 9's perfect score (18089), plus the difference in entry-scores, to get Cavern 10's perfect score: 18089 + 1318 + 400 = 19807.
7. Cavern 8 only has 4 items, therefore the perfect score is attained by sacrificing two lives in Cavern 7, and only the third in Cavern 8. Cavern 8's perfect entry-score without loss of life is 12887, therefore its perfect entry-score after two sacrifices is 12887 + 2*500 = 13887. Once in Cavern 8, you score 400 points for the items and 2500 for downing the Kong Beast (which you can only score once), giving you a perfect score of 16787.
8. Setting the perfect scores for Caverns 9 to 20 each requires sacrificing a life in Cavern 8, because you can only score 2500 for downing the Kong Beast once, and you lose a lot of time for doing so (145 points worth, to be precise). The perfect entry-score for Cavern 9 after sacrificing a life in Cavern 8 is 17489. But since Cavern 9 has only one item, you have to sacrifice lives in both Caverns 7 and 8 to set the perfect score for Cavern 9: 18089.
9. Caverns 10 to 13 each have 5 items, so setting the perfect scores only requires sacrificing a life in Caverns 8. These scores are 19807, 21609, 25806 and 27545, respectively.
10. Caverns 14 to 16 only have 4, 3 and 4 items, respectively, so you have to sacrifice lives in Caverns 8 and 13 to set the perfect scores: 29184, 30828 and 32551, respectively.
11. Cavern 17 has 5 items, so you only have to sacrifice a life in Cavern 8 to set a perfect score of 34416.
12. Caverns 18 and 19 have 1 and 3 items respectively, so you have to sacrifice lives in Caverns 8 and 17 to set the perfect scores: 35881 for Cavern 18, and I haven't worked out Cavern 19's perfect score yet (approx. 37200), because I'm not yet convinced that I have played Cavern 18 perfectly.
13. Cavern 20 has 5 items, so you only have to sacrifice a life in Cavern 8 to set a perfect score.
14. Caverns 21 to 27 each have 10 items, so it will not profit you to sacrifice any lives before Cavern 21.
Edited by andrewbroad on 20-12-2008 23:09 |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
mitkey
Member
Posts: 5
Location:
Joined: 23.09.07 |
| Posted on 20-12-2008 23:55 |
|
|
Thanks for the answer, but it's not what I wanted to know. I should have been more specific in my question - rather than what you dub "perfect scores" I was interested in "perfect entry scores". How do you calculate that? I.e. 1802 for Cavern 1?
From your post it seems that you simply play the level perfectly.  Is that so?
Edited by mitkey on 20-12-2008 23:57 |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
andrewbroad
Member
Posts: 69
Location: England
Joined: 23.11.05 |
| Posted on 21-12-2008 16:06 |
|
|
The first thing I should say about perfect entry-scores is that they are perfect with respect to a specified condition, depending on what you're aiming to achieve in a particular game. Thus, a cavern (8 or later) may have one perfect entry-score without loss of life, another perfect entry-score after sacrificing a life in a specified cavern, and even a third perfect entry-score after sacrificing two lives in specified caverns.
If you know the perfect score (at death) for a given cavern, you can calculate the perfect entry-score by subtracting 100*i*l, where i is the number of items in the cavern, and l is the number of remaining lives upon entry, and also subtracting 2500 if it is a Kong-Beast cavern.
I work out a cavern's perfect entry-score by playing the preceding cavern perfectly, i.e. after manually exploring all possible optimisations to the route, and being sure that I have executed all the possible ones. As I explained in Point 5 in my above post, this can be done incrementally, rather than having to play all previous caverns perfectly.
An algorithm to take a room-definition for Cavern n and calculate the perfect score from entering Cavern n to entering Cavern n+1 would be extremely complex, requiring full knowledge of all the quirks of the game-mechanics. It is, in fact, an NP-complete problem (equivalent to the Travelling Salesman problem), meaning that any algorithm to solve it would have exponential time-complexity - at least without some heuristics for pruning out unsuitable paths to explore (paths that could not possibly be part of the perfect route).
Edited by andrewbroad on 21-12-2008 16:18 |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
mitkey
Member
Posts: 5
Location:
Joined: 23.09.07 |
| Posted on 21-12-2008 22:48 |
|
|
I beg to differ about the complexity of the problem. The problem is polynomial; in fact it amounts to finding a shortest path in a graph.
For starters, let's consider a cave with no guardians (take Cavern 4 for instance). Each position of Willy in the cave can be considered a node of an oriented graph. By pressing (or not pressing) a given key while in a particular node of the graph (position in the game), you simply choose a path from that node to another node. For example, not moving at all means remaining in the same state (unless you stand on a conveyor belt). Pressing the "left arrow" key gets you into a different state. The game is fully deterministic and thus the graph is always the same.
There is a unique starting state and more ending states (since the exit gate is more than one pixel wide/high). Now the score penalty you get is linearly proportional to the time you spend in the cavern. And the time you spend there is proportional to the length of the path in the oriented graph. Thus finding the optimal score for Cavern 4 amounts to finding the shortest path in an oriented graph, which is a polynomial task. The size of the graph isn't that big; actually it is proportional to the number of positions where Willy can be controlled (during a jump/fall, you cannot control Willy and thus the corresponding node has only one exit - and you can compress such paths).
What remains to be considered:
1) You need to collect all keys. This makes the problem slightly more complicated; the paths you look for must contain the positions of the keys. This could be solved by breaking the problem into subproblems (find a set of shortest paths to a set of all states where the first key is just being collected, and use this set of states as a starting position of the next segment that goes to the next key).
2) In all other caves, there are guardians there. You can include the guardians into the graph by introducing another small complication: First observe that the guardians are synchronised - after a short time period they all assume the same position that had at the beginning of the level - call it t0. In order to include the guardians into the graph, you need to replicate the graph t0 times and set the edges so that whatever you do, each edge takes you into the next graph (and the last graph than takes you into the first one). The graphs would differ only in the definition of the "deadly states".
3) The implementation: You'd need an interface of the game which would let you "step" the game yourself (instead of using a timer) and get a report of what happens. This way you could run a -- let's say -- Dijkstra's algorithm in order to traverse the graph defined by the described rules.
All types of optimizations, such as prunning, etc. would probably be necessary if the number of states is too high.
This is probably not of much use if you're able to play the levels perfectly (as opposed to myself), however there might be some caves where this could help (i.e. The Warehouse?). Actually, The Warehouse might be a bit of a problem due to loads of quicksand there. Each piece of quicksand multiplies the number of states by nine, so there would be probably a truckload of states in that level.
Edited by mitkey on 21-12-2008 23:12 |
|
| Author |
RE: Manic Miner |
andrewbroad
Member
Posts: 69
Location: England
Joined: 23.11.05 |
| Posted on 22-12-2008 22:38 |
|
|
Well, the perfect-score problem is actually NP-complete in the number of items, since you have to collect them all (equivalent to the requirement of visiting every city in the Travelling Salesman problem), and the optimum order in which to collect them is not predefined, whereas Point 1) above appears to assume that the order is predefined.
However, since none of the caverns in Flash MM have more than 10 items (considerably fewer than the number of possible states of a cavern!), this does set a reasonable bound on the complexity. It's still a good deal more complex than simply finding the shortest path from the start-position to the portal, though, as one has to decide the optimum order in which to collect items: there are n! possible orderings of n items = 3628800 for 10 items.
While the problem is not as bad as O(n!) - as it would be if one tried to solve it by simply trying all permutations - it is as bad as O(n^2 * 2^n) when using the best-known dynamic-programming techniques - although for 10 items, that's just 1124.
Edited by andrewbroad on 22-12-2008 22:52 |
|
